This month, our CEO, Jay Judas, talks to Chris Burch, CLU®, FLMI, Senior Vice President, National Brokerage Atlantic. The pair discuss Chris's fascinating journey to her current position, the role of AI in underwriting, the foreign national market and where to eat if you find yourself in Austin! Read on to learn more!
JAY: I could sit and listen to stories from senior life insurance underwriters for hours as I find myself fascinated by their real-life case experiences. Hence, this month’s interview is as much a treat to myself as it is informative to our readers. Chris, you have been an underwriter for over 35 years and worked from the bottom rung to leading underwriting for a major brokerage. We will get to your background in second but, first, tell me more about National Brokerage Atlantic and your role there.
CHRIS: Jay, I feel very honored to be featured in your Tier One Interview series. Having read through some of the other interviews that have been posted, I quickly realized that I’m in good company! National Brokerage Atlantic is a boutique BGA that offers unique expertise and market access for financial professionals who service the affluent U.S. and international clientele. We are a full-service BGA and pride ourselves on the concierge service we provide from sales, advanced markets, contracting and licensing and, of course, underwriting.
I believe we are unique because of the underwriting services we offer. Since I am a trained underwriter who worked at the carrier level for 21 years before entering the BGA space, I offer a unique approach to evaluating cases. I can review and interpret a complete case file and anticipate what the carrier will ask for. In my role, I customarily review preliminary information, exams, medical records, financials, advanced market strategies and assess risk associated with our foreign national market. Perhaps most importantly, I review all data collected before a formal submission so we can present our client in the most favorable way.
Having insight into both the internal workings of a case at the carrier level and understanding an advisor’s needs in the field are the key to our success in underwriting the affluent client. I always say, the underwriting needs to be done on the front end, or the back end. It’s better to go to the front door with a complete case for underwriting review, then to try and work the case through the back door where challenges arise, and delays happen. Always lots of moving parts, but that’s what makes this job so fun. Each day is different!
JAY: Normally, this is where I would ask you about your path to the life insurance industry and your career to this point and I definitely want you to cover this history. However, when we spoke a few weeks ago, you talked about being a young woman in Nebraska who seemingly had very few options and, in your words, “to not have much of a future.” That changed with the opportunity to interview with a major insurance company, didn’t it?
CHRIS: It sure did, Jay. Growing up in rural Nebraska I honestly thought I was destined to work at my Grandma’s Pub and Café forever. I only had two years of college, and no college degree. I remember my dad saying to me, “If you don’t finish college, you’ll never have an opportunity to be successful and earn a good living.” That statement lit a fire under me because I thought, “Oh yeah, well I’ll show you.” At 23 years of age, newly married and a brand new 4-month-old daughter, I received a call from a friend who worked for State Farm who said they were hiring. I thought, well I don’t know a thing about insurance, but I may as well try. I was interviewed and was offered a job to be an underwriting typist in the Health Department. Back in 1989, this was the equivalent to today’s case managers.
Subsequently, my insurance journey started in health insurance. I worked in that capacity for several years until State Farm announced they would be merging their life and health units into one department. This is when my focus shifted from just having a “job,” to seeing a career path. I was cross trained in life insurance and found a new passion. I continued in that role until I was offered an opportunity to become an underwriting assistant. As an assistant, I was given a small retention of $50K where I had signing authority to approve and decline cases. Of course, this was under the mentorship of a seasoned underwriter, and I became proficient quickly.
However, because I didn’t have my college degree, State Farm would not give me an opportunity for promotion to an underwriter. This position requires a 4-year degree or insurance education equivalency. I needed a FLMI (Fellow Life Management Institute) designation or a CLU (Chartered Life Underwriter) designation. I completed my FLMI designation in just over two years.
Once I had that designation, I was able to apply for professional level positions. Two jobs became available - one as a Life Underwriting Trainer and another as a Life Insurance Underwriter. I was tapped for the Life Underwriting Trainer position, and I went from being an Underwriting Assistant to training new underwriters!
I finished my career with State Farm in operations management, where I supervised life service, an underwriting call center, and finally an agency compensation and credit unit.
In 2012, a headhunter called about a position with a wealth management company. I thought they were looking for someone with a sales background but, to my surprise, they were looking for an Underwriter with two to three years of experience. Well, I had that plus some, so I applied, interviewed and was given the job. This was my first opportunity working in the BGA space. I learned so much. I learned about premium financing, foreign nationals, US nexus and other emerging life insurance markets. These areas were nothing I had encountered in my prior 21 years of underwriting experience.
Working in this space, your name and work product mean a lot because there is so much crossover between BGAs and life insurance companies. I was called and asked to head up National Brokerage Atlantic’s Underwriting and Case Management department in 2019 which, as it turned not, didn’t exist until I took the position. My first task was to build the department from the bottom up with the support of a great boss and great team members.
Today, it is a significant value proposition for both new and seasoned life insurance professionals. Without underwriting and case management, life insurance policies don’t get placed. I’m very proud of what I’ve created here at National Brokerage Atlantic and will continue to improve as the underwriting world is forever evolving.
Fortunately, I was able to show my dad, before he passed away, that while a college degree can be valuable; a good work ethic, great work experience and insurance education can accomplish the same thing. I have an excellent career and I’m earning a great living. I guess I showed him after all! I know he was very proud of me.
JAY: Last year, I interviewed Tammy Marlotte, a career senior underwriter who has expertise in helping to integrate AI into the underwriting process. I don’t want to pretend there are limits to what AI can, or will, eventually do for our industry. Though, for the time being, having humans remain involved at some level has benefits for all parties involved. Can you talk about this?
CHRIS: Jay, there’s no doubt AI will one day play a much larger role in all our lives, including in the life insurance space. We are already seeing a lot of technology making the underwriting application process faster and more efficient with regards to instant issue and accelerated underwriting. I remember being an underwriter back in the day, and worrying every time there was some sort of automation in the underwriting process that meant I was one step closer to not being needed. That was 35 years ago, and underwriters still play a large and significant role in the risk assessment process.
This is largely in part because of the basic human need to apply decision-making and judgement skills while underwriting. Not all cases will fall into the parameters of Instant Issue or Accelerated Underwriting, with most carriers saying that statistic is around 30%. This means most cases are being kicked out for full underwriting.
When you have large, complex cases, you must be able to use judgement and critical decision-making skills. All underwriters have guidelines to follow but that’s what they are, just guidelines. When looking at a complex case holistically, often, that requires underwriting to ask questions as basic as, “Does this make sense?”, “Can I apply credits to improve the offer?”, “Is net worth and income too low, or is it at least close to what I need?”, or “Can I move this case that is Table C to a Table B because the client is only 4 pounds away from a Table B?”
In underwriting, relationships matter. We innately want to talk to a human when a case doesn’t go our way. For this reason, I truly believe we will always need underwriters.
If we go too far into the AI world, ultimately, I think it could have a negative impact on revenue and profitability. The more limitations you put into the algorithms for automated underwriting where human involvement is low or none, we stand a chance of losing a case that could have been saved by applying a little bit of judgement and decision making. I firmly believe there will never be a time when underwriters become extinct, they are just too fundamental insuring risk has been assessed adequately and fairly to maintain the profitability and pricing of any given product.
JAY: My major takeaway from what you’ve said, Chris, is that AI has the potential to reduce revenue and insurance company profitability without human involvement. Let me change gears to another area from where we are experiencing growth in our industry: foreign nationals. Why are we seeing more foreign nationals interested in buying life insurance from U.S. carriers?
CHRIS: That’s a great question, Jay. We have seen a significant amount of growth in our foreign national market. This stems from several reasons. First, more and more foreign nationals are acquiring significant wealth in the U.S. in addition to their worldwide net worth. This creates a specific need for estate planning, especially for those that would have estate tax implications in the U.S.
Additionally, the affluent foreign national clientele is very interested in U.S. insurance products because our offering in the U.S. is vastly larger than what they might have available in their home countries. They also have a genuine understanding surrounding the need for life insurance, being a bit more financially savvy.
And lastly, and probably the biggest driver with our foreign national clients, is maintaining privacy regarding their wealth. Purchasing large amounts of coverage in their home country puts a big spotlight on the individual. If they buy coverage in the U.S., they are assured in most situations that their financial data and overall wealth will be private and secure. There are great opportunities in servicing foreign national business and this is why it is a big part of our expertise at National Brokerage Atlantic. Understanding how to service this type of client is paramount to future growth.
JAY: How do you approach underwriting for a foreign national client? Is it different from a U.S. insured?
CHRIS: Underwriting for foreign nationals and domestic clients is similar in many ways. But we must approach the two through separate looking glasses. First, we must properly vet a foreign national to ensure they can qualify for the amount, the carrier selection, and product being applied for. Several criteria must be reviewed prior to a quote, or we could end up quoting something that the client is ineligible for. That starts with which country they are citizens of, do they have dual citizenship, where do they have residency, where do they travel, and determining how much time they are spending in any given place. Each carrier assigns what is called “country codes” to each country they can do business with. Understanding if a carrier will even consider the client based on his citizenship, residency and foreign travel must be established first and foremost.
If a client falls into an approved country code, then it’s determining what the retention and reinsurance limits are for that county. They may be interested in $75 million of coverage, but a carrier’s retention might only be $35 million. We don’t want to quote an amount that they will not qualify for.
Following capacity concerns, we must look at what, if any, U.S. nexus exists. What ties do they have to the U.S. that would create a need for U.S. based life insurance? Do they own property, operate businesses in U.S., bank accounts in the U.S. etc. Once we’ve completed this vetting process, then we can begin designing the case and provide quotes.
The rest of underwriting a foreign national is much the same as a U.S. client where we begin the underwriting data collection process. This is followed by ordering exams, medical records and requesting financials. Foreign national solicitation, which includes examination, illustration quote, application and policy delivery, must occur in the U.S in most cases. There are some nuances that allow some of that process to occur in their home country depending on the carrier.
Understanding how to properly vet a foreign national case prior to providing a quote, as well as navigating underwriting challenges associated with clients in another country is something we do extremely well here at NBA. It’s critical to the success of a case.
JAY: As a professional woman in the top tier of the life insurance industry, you have noticed the disparity between the number of men and the number of women in our profession. How do we address this?
CHRIS: Jay, I think anyone who attends any sort of life insurance conference would agree that the life insurance professionals in the audience are predominantly men. I think how men and women get involved in the insurance industry at the beginning of their careers tend to differ. While plenty of women have built successful businesses through their entrepreneurship spirit and proven sales experience; it’s not typically the norm. I was told many times early in my career that I should be in sales. But I knew that wasn’t my passion and so I never pursued it. And despite never doing sales, I’ve built an incredible career on the operations side of the business.
I feel if more women in this younger generation were aware that a career in life insurance doesn’t have to start in sales, they may be more inclined to pursue rewarding careers in the insurance industry. That career could start as a case manager, an underwriter, an actuary, in policyholder service, or in any number of other roles. It offers so much opportunity for growth, and then, after some years on the operations side of things, they may get the itch to try distribution or sales after acquiring knowledge about the industry. Creating love for the industry , like so many of us have found, is what will keep them heading down the ever evolving and rewarding path of life insurance
JAY: National Brokerage Atlantic has been growing rapidly and I know you put in a lot of hours contributing to that growth. When you are away from work, how do you fill your free time?
CHRIS: This one is easy Jay; I travel whenever I can. I’m a beach girl through-and-through. I’ve always said I’ll likely miss seeing some of the most interesting places in the world because if it doesn’t involve white sand and turquoise blue waters, I’m not going! The ocean has my heart.
When I’m not traveling, I spend time with my adult children and grandson. My son, Dalton, is married and has a four-year-old. He’s adulting very well with a successful career in science research. My daughter, Brytni, is my free spirit and dancing to the beat of her own drum and loving life. Brytni and I are always down for a good comedy show or concert at the Moody Center. The last concert we went to together was Pink and it was phenomenal! My grandson, Griffin loves all things dinosaurs. We’ve been to multiple events in the Austin area that feature dinosaurs!
Aside from traveling and family, I have a pretty active social life. I have a great group of girlfriends that I love to travel with. When we aren’t traveling you can find us at music festivals like Austin City Limits, or SXSW (South by Southwest), or enjoying a great meal and live music and dancing.
JAY: Chris, thank you for joining the ranks of our Tier One Interviewees – you’ve done a fantastic job. It is time for our world-famous restaurant question. Without naming a steak or a steak dish, give me a few recommendations for what I should eat and what I should order when I am there.
CHRIS: Jay, thank you for believing in me enough to include me in your compilation of some of the finest in the industry. I’m truly honored. As for the eats, besides Austin being known as the “Live Music Capital of the World,” we are also a bunch of foodies down here. From Michelin award winning restaurants to food trucks just randomly parked next to a gas station; there is something for everyone here in Austin.
For an upscale, casual vibe with outstanding ambience and both indoor and outdoor seating, Aba is a must. Everything is delicious but you will want to order the Crispy Short Rib Hummus. You’ll never see hummus in the same light again.
For the best Thai food in town, you’ll head over to Barton Springs Picnic, a quaint little area just blocks away from Zilker park where you will find a family-owned food truck called Coat and Thai serving up authentic dishes. My favorite dish is their Pad See-ew. I always ask for the spicy “dry” mix they use for seasoning on the side and then and sprinkle it on top of my dish. It adds the perfect amount of spice and deliciousness.
And if you have a hankering for something sweet, you go to Amy’s Ice cream. I promise it doesn’t disappoint.
Since its inception, Life Insurance Strategies Group has solely focused on the individual high net worth life insurance market. We do not sell products. This allows us to offer unbiased, pragmatic advice. Visit us at www.lifeinsurancestrategiesgroup.com.
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